• Click HERE to go back
  • Click HERE to go Home
  • Taken From Search The Scriptures Open Forum


    It all started with one letter.
    A brother in Christ had a question and it was responded to.
    After that everyone had something to say



    Posted by Mike on September 23, 2000

    ************
    The Letter:
    Greetings in Christ,
    I have a question about salvation. I was brought up to believe in
    eternal security until I was truly saved. My problem is I have one or
    two besetting sins that I can;t seem to overcome. I have prayed and
    prayed. I read my Bible and I feel the Holy Spirit in my life and I am
    wondering does Hebrews 10:26 apply to me. I don't ever want to be
    without Jesus and I am trying really hard to do his will but sometimes
    my weakness overtakes me. Please let me know your opinion. Blessings
    in Christ.
    **************************


    Greetings in Christ,

    Brother, I read your letter and have prayed about an answer. First of all I would like to say that you have a very good question. You started out by stating that you have a question concerning salvation. Often I find those that hold to eternal security like to equate the question of whether salvation is unconditional with the gospel of salvation itself. These are really two separate issues. Like those that believe in Eternal Security I also believe that Christ alone did everything that was required of God to reconcile man to Himself through His shed blood. For anyone to add to Gods finished work in Christ is another Gospel (which the bible says there is none). Our salvation is in Christ. Just as we received it (by grace through faith) we are to remain in it (by grace through faith) and without faith it is impossible to please Him. That is where the two sides differ. One side believes that one does not have to continue in Christ through faith and the other side says that you must. The Bible clearly teaches that what has been done for us in Christ is only ours as we continue in Christ.

    (Col 1:21-23 KJV) And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled {22} In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: {23} If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    Now to get to the first part of your question; you had stated “My problem is I have one or two besetting sins that I can’t seem to overcome”. Brother, as long as we are in this flesh we are dependent upon the grace that is in Christ Jesus. He is our justification now and when we stand before God in that day. Even Paul saw the wretchedness of himself the closer he drew to Christ. This did not bring about a distancing but strengthened his desire to know and depend on the One whom he placed his trust.

    I myself do not know what you mean by “besetting sins” but I will give you what God has placed on my heart concerning your question. The things that I struggle with today are not the things I struggled with when I first got saved. Even though we are currently trapped in this “body of destruction” that is no excuse for us to remain in the sins that God has made a Way for us to escape through Christ. We are warned throughout scripture that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. The writer of Hebrews states:

    (Heb 3:12-14 KJV) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. {13} But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. {14} For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    You have probably heard it said, “all sin is the same before God”. When it comes to separating us from God that is true. Scripture says that if you have fallen short in one part you have failed it all. But when it comes to sin it is not all the same. In the Law of Moses some sins required that the guilty be put to death and others required all sorts of different sacrifices and penalties. In the New Testament we see the same thing. The Bible states in (Eph 5:3-6 KJV) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; {4} Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. {5} For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. {6} Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

    When we become Christ’s we take on His name. The Bible says they were first called Christians in Antioch. A Christian is one who is Christ like. A painter is one who currently paints. The same applies to a carpenter or any other occupation. If I quit painting and become a fireman you would refer to me as a fireman not a painter, because I know longer paint. The same applies here as Christians and Sinners. An adulterer is one who practices adultery. They shall not have any inheritance in the kingdom of God if they continue to practice this sin. An idolater, is one who practices worshipping idols, they too shall not have any inheritance in the kingdom of God if they continue to practice this sin. A drug dealer is one who is currently dealing drugs and so on. There is no such thing as a Christian Drug dealer or a Christian Prostitute. In order for one to be a Christian they would have to quit dealing drugs or prostituting or whatever they use to do, and start imitating Christ. If one quits doing the things they use to do (repents) and asks Christ into his or her life they are saved. If they go back to being a prostitute, liar or adulterer and die living in this state the Bible says they shall have no part in the kingdom of God and of Christ. In the verse above Paul is warning Christians not to be deceived. If your besetting sins are one of the sins the Bible states “let no man deceive you” then please listen to what God is telling you. Remember scripture tells us if our conscience condemns us God is greater than our conscience. Paul even warns the Galatians in (Gal 6:7-8 KJV) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. {8} For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

    I would give the same warning to you also if you are practicing adultery, fornication, lying, (all liars will have their part in the lake of fire) or any other sin the Bible says those who practice shall not enter in. Remember Jesus’ warning of those who PRACTICED these things:

    (Mat 7:23 KJV) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. The NKJV says: ‘you who practice lawlessness!’

    If your besetting sins are not as serious as something that could keep you from Heaven you must still be warned that the serpent was the subtlest creature in the whole garden. The Bible says we are not ignorant of his devices. One of his devices is his subtle way of getting us to hold on to things that God has warned us to give up. If we choose to ignore the convictions of the Holy Spirit, before we know it we are caught up in a lot more then what we originally intended. Again the Bible says, “a little leaven, leavens the whole lump”.

    In the second part of your question you had asked if Hebrew 10:26 applies to you. The writer is addressing the brethren. If you back up six verses it will be clear whom he is implying to:

    (Heb 10:19-29 KJV) Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, {20} By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; {21} And having an high priest over the house of God; {22} Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. {23} Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) {24} And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: {25} Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. {26} For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, {27} But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. {28} He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: {29} Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    This verse along with every verse in scripture applies to us that have been “sanctified by the blood of the covenant”. Yes, this verse applies to you but I pray that God will help me to help you understand it.

    There remains no other sacrifice other than the one God gave in Christ. Twenty-three verses prior to 10:26 we are reminded of the Law and how the sacrifices in the Law would serve as a reminder to those performing them every year.

    (Heb 10:3 KJV) But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

    The writer of Hebrews is stating that those sacrifices (in the Law) were without effect and served as a looking forward to the one sacrifice that would truly do what needed to be done. In 10:26 he goes on to state that if we continue to sin willfully there is not going to be another sacrifice like there was every year in the Law. God has done in the one sacrifice of His Son all that is needed to make atonement for sin. Our only hope now, is to repent and to trust in this one sacrifice as being sufficient to not only save us, but keep us from those things which so easily beset us. He uses the examples of the penalties of the Old Testament to say, you think these punishments are bad, what about Hell? (fiery indignation). This is a warning to the brethren to take their walks seriously and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. It is clear and to the point.

    (Heb 12:1-2 KJV) Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, {2} Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    Brother, I would encourage you to move forward by making up your mind that Christ is more important than this besetting sin or two. I learned the hard way about compromise in my walk and how it can lead one right back to a life of utter hopelessness. In my past there was a period of three years that I forsook what God had done for me and turned back to the world. The bondage that I had brought upon myself for those three years reminds me of how I cannot take sin in my life lightly today. I want to remain free in Christ and I know that I cannot do this by compromising with sin. There will always be something that God is working on in our flesh but let us pray that what He is working on today is not what he is working on tomorrow. We need to make sure our conscience is clear by fleeing those things that God makes obvious he wants dealt with. I hope this helps you and I pray that God bless you brother!

    Gods Servant in Christ




    Posted by Rapture on October 05, 2000

    Mike, I agree with everything you are saying except the part about being a prostitute or drug dealer...

    ************
    "There is no such thing as a Christian Drug dealer or a Christian Prostitute. In order for one to be a Christian they would have to quit dealing drugs or prostituting or whatever they use to do, and start imitating Christ. If one quits doing the things they use to do (repents) and asks Christ into his or her life they are saved. If they go back to being a prostitute, liar or adulterer and die practicing these types of sins the Bible says they shall have no part in the kingdom of God and of Christ"
    **************************


    I'm sorry but...if you are saved...that position is stamped. People think that they can lose their salvation or not have a place in the Kingdom of God if they "Fall Away". Its amazing how so many people know the story of Nicodemus by heart and have John 3:16 memorized but they forget the Spiritual events that take place during conversion.

    A "Christian" as you stated it is one who is Christ like. No....It is (in the true spiritual sense of the word) one who has Christ IN THEM. You become a NEW CREATION...you are BORN AGAIN. Just as Nicodemus said..."How can a man enter into his mother's womb again?"...the irreversible process of being born physically is the same spiritually. I would most definetly accept the fact that someone wasn't saved to begin with rather than them losing their salvation. And if you are saved..you ARE going to be with the Lord in Heaven (I won't even get into what it means to be saved and our position with the Lord from that point on...read Eph. Chapter 1).

    The discerment the Lord gives me on
    Eph 5:3-6 is this...plain and simple...

    You know that those people(characterized by their sins) are not entering Heaven because the wrath of God REMAINS on them. Now, since you are saved and have been redeemed through Christ...don't act like them.

    In no way, shape, or form do I see a warning of not entering the Kingdom of God of a saved individual. As Christians...we are sanctified the Holy Spirit...which you stated in your reply is a life long process. But in this walk we are called not to "walk as the Gentiles walk"..."Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness"..."put off the old man...put on the new man".
    We do this because of where we ARE NOW positionally with the Lord...we don't do these things so that we DON'T LOSE our position. And because of this wonderful grace...people might start thinking that we could do whatever we want...and Paul already answered that question in Romans 6. We have been freed from the bondage of sin...but Paul also states that we can offer ourselves to it and be a slave again to it. Paul is writing to Chritians there...and because they are "christians" they are born again, at peace with God, and sealed with His Holy Spirit. But the wonderful blessings of the Cross will not be experienced if you don't combine what you've heard with faith and as James said..."Faith without actions is dead." I believe a person can have a saved soul and a wasted life because they have a choice to respond to the Lord in every day life. If a person could get saved and then that was it...no struggle...no suffering through temptation...no confession of sins (even besetting sins)...no failure...weakness...discouragement.
    The cross would actually be a cheap victory. Just as Paul could say that trust worthy saying.."Christ came to die for sinners...of whom I am chief" (I know I didn't quote it perfectly)...our flesh reminds us of what Christ has done for us. I thank the Lord!!!!! I have a "bessetting" sin that I wondered "Lord, I know you could take this away from me cause you can do anything...why haven't you when I have asked you so earnestly?"
    The Lord quietly spoke to me...The blessing isn't in the actual deliverance...its in the PROCESS of deliverance. He never wants me to sin...that is true...but I do...He knows that I'm going to...and in His wisdom, in the past, He has let me get into situations or whatever that I shouldn't have and I fell...His kindess brought me to repentance (as Paul states)....not the fear of not entering in His Heavenly Kingdom.



    Posted by beyondeve on October 28, 2000

    In Reply to: Re: Response to a Letter posted by Rapture on October 05, 2000

    I just wanted to say something about the carpenter and the painter. Yes we may sign up to be them, but you study and learn from the expert. Just like we are changing from glory to glory to glory. We as christians will have Palms 23 moments of walking thru the valley of the shadow of death. We are told to fear no evil. He is with us always. Romans 8 38-39 my life verses...ie. He will never leave us. There is no documented person in the bible who ever lost salvation, is there? How much sin does it take, and does that not make Christs work on the cross incomplete. If he didnt die for ALL our sins, all of them were future for us, what did he die for and could you put him back on the cross and do it again for those you think were not forgiven. Salvation is eternal. There is no way He would let a defeated devil steal you back. Thats not my Daddy, He said i was adopted...i dont have a conditional legal contract. Im His and He is mine.



    Posted by Mike on November 03, 2000

    In Reply to: Re: Response to a Letter posted by beyondeve on October 28, 2000

    You said
    "Romans 8 38-39 my life verses...ie. He will never leave us. There is no documented person in the bible who ever lost salvation, is there?"

    Are you asking or telling?
    (Phile 1:24 KJV) Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.
    (2 Tim 4:10 KJV) For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
    Solomon who wrote parts of the Bible died worshiping the Gods of his wives.
    The Bible says Saul died seeking a witch because God had left him.

    There are warnings all over scripture to Christians today:
    (Eph 5:3-6 KJV) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; {4} Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. {5} For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. {6} Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

    (Heb 10:26-29 KJV) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, {27} But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. {28} He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: {29} Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    (2 Pet 2:20-21 KJV) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. {21} For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    (Heb 6:4-8 KJV) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, {5} And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, {6} If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. {7} For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: {8} But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

    There is a good letter in the response section of Search The Scriptures...maybe you should check it out

    You also said:
    “If he didnt die for ALL our sins, all of them were future for us, what did he die for and could you put him back on the cross and do it again for those you think were not forgiven”

    Scripture says:
    (Rom 3:25 KJV) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    The Bible says the sins that are past (in other words sins that are repented of)

    It also says in
    (2 Pet 1:9 KJV) But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

    We are purged from old sins (repented sins of our past)

    I challenge you to find me one verse that says our sins are forgiven past present and future. But yet I hear this stated from those teaching once saved always saved all the time. This is another false assumption used to build the lies of a doctrine that can not be supported whatsoever in scripture. Isn't it funny that there is not one verse in the whole bible that says plainly, that once you are saved you can not lose your salvation. Salvation is conditional upon remaining in Christ (Gods gift of grace) through faith. (Coincidentally this just happens to also be how we got saved.) Kind of hard to label that as works salvation isn't it?





    Posted by Rapture on November 09, 2000

    In Reply to: Re: Response to a Letter posted by Mike on November 03, 2000

    ...You want just ONE???

    Ephesians 1:13-14

    "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who IS THE GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession to the praise of His glory"

    What do you think "having believed" means?
    What do you think "you were sealed" means?
    What do you think "who is the guarantee" means?

    Did you notice that the only condition Paul puts on being redeemed is "having believed"?

    ...do me a favor, PLEASE. Answer these questions...

    When you believe the Truth are you born again?
    Yes or No?
    When you are born again are you born of the Spirit?
    Yes or No?
    When you are born again do you cross over from Death to Life?

    ...now show me in the NEW TESTAMENT of examples of someone becoming UN-born again. Or crossing from Death to Life back to Death again.
    The reason I say New Testament is becuase after Christ rose from the dead the Spirit of God was now INDWELLING.

    Col 1:26-27,

    "the mystery which has been hidden from ages an dfrom generations, bu now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: WHICH IS CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory."

    In the Old Testament there was no INDWELLING of the Spirit of God...it CAME UPON individuals.
    (Check the original languages and you'll see the contrast between the Old Testament and New Testament filling of the Spirit)

    ...if you don't understand the difference your interpretation of the Bible will be GREATLY effected!

    ...another thing...when you read scripture you definetly don't want to say something thats not there or not acknowledge something that is. BUT!
    When you read...look closely at WHO is being referred to (i.e...."the sons of disobedience")
    ...a lot of things are confused in the Bible because people can't discern between "they" and "them" and "we" and "you"
    Pay very close attention and see that Paul is talking to Christians about Pagans and using them as examples with their positions to the Lord.

    and one last thing....AND THIS IS BIGGG!!!

    You said that Christ died for our past sins but not future ones.

    How long ago did Christ die for us?
    Where you born yet?
    So how can you say that Christ didn't die for future sins?

    1 John 1:9

    "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness"

    Question....Who is Paul talking to? Christians or Pagans? So if they are already saved and their past sins are forgiven...why does He tell them to confess and have the Lord forgive and purify?

    Pray about it...




    Posted by Mike on December 01, 2000

    In Reply to: Re: Response to a Letter posted by Rapture on November 09, 2000

    Mr. Rapture, you stated in your response to my challenge to find one verse that says plainly, that once you are saved you can not lose your salvation.

    *************
    ...You want just ONE???
    Ephesians 1:13-14
    "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom
    also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who IS THE
    GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession to the praise of
    His glory"
    What do you think "having believed" means?
    What do you think "you were sealed" means?
    What do you think "who is the guarantee" means?
    Did you notice that the only condition Paul puts on being redeemed is "having believed"?
    ****************************

    The first rule in interpreting scripture is to always do so in light of scripture. Your interpretation of this verse is done with an utter blindness to the rest of the bible. It’s almost as though this is the only verse that you can remember when you go about explaining it. Is this the same Spirit that Paul says not to quench (which means to put out) in 1 These 5:19? Do not stop with this one verse. Paul continues his letter to the Ephesians by giving us more detail concerning the sealing of the Holy Spirit with whom we are sealed to the day of redemption.

    (Eph 4:30-5:6 KJV) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. {31} Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: {32} And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; {2} And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. {3} But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; {4} Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. {5} For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

    There is no confusion here, Paul is addressing saints (as becometh saints) when he warns that if they return to these sins, not to be deceived, because it is for this reason God’s wrath is coming upon the ungodly. He is warning saints not to think for a minute that we will escape if we live this way. Which sounds frighteningly similar to this verse of scripture:

    (Gal 5:19-21 KJV) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, {20} Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, {21} Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Does this verse apply to Christians or to non-Christians? If it is addressed to the unbeliever my question is why. They are going to Hell no matter what they do or don’t do if they reject Jesus as their savior. What good is it to warn them not to sin? It is Jesus they need. We know that good works in no way prevents one from escaping Hell, it is faith in Christ alone. This is addressed to the believer. Paul makes it clear to believers that if they return to doing such things they shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Again this is very plain. Paul then goes on to warn the Galatians in this same letter:

    (Gal 6:7-8 KJV) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. {8} For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

    Does this apply to Christians Mr. Rapture? If so, everlasting life is conditional upon continuing to sew in the Spirit?

    You continue:
    **********************
    ...do me a favor, PLEASE. Answer these questions...
    When you believe the Truth are you born again?
    Yes or No?
    ***********************


    Not always Mr. Rapture. The bible says:

    (James 2:19-22 KJV) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. {20} But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? {21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

    Jesus is the Truth, and there is a reference to those that believed on Him in scripture that contradicts the assumed answer you expect from your question. Jesus made it clear to these Jews that believed on Him that they must continue in Him to be His disciples. Jesus went on later to refer to these same Jews that believed on Him, as children of the devil.

    (John 8:31-44 KJV) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; {32} And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. {33} They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? {34} Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. {35} And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. {36} If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. {37} I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. {38} I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. {39} They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. {40} But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. {41} Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. {42} Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. {43} Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. {44} Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    We show our faith by our works.

    You continue:
    ************************
    When you are born again are you born of the Spirit?
    Yes or No?
    *****************


    YES but what does that have to do with once saved always saved?

    You continue:
    ***********************
    When you are born again do you cross over from Death to Life?
    ************************


    That is what the Bible says Mr. Rapture:

    (1 John 3:14-15 KJV) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. {15} Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

    But Jesus warns us that if we start to hate our brother we are in danger of losing this eternal life. Let us also never forget what Jesus taught us:

    (Mat 18:23-35 KJV) Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. {24} And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. {25} But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. {26} The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. {27} Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. {28} But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. {29} And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. {30} And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. {31} So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. {32} Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: {33} Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? {34} And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. {35} So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

    One is either forgiven of his sins or pays for them just as this man in this parable. If we had to pay our debt it would be in Hell for eternity. This man was fully forgiven of his debt (like what has been made available to us in Christ) but because later in his walk he did not forgive his brother, he was striped of this forgiveness and forced to pay his debt in full. Does this apply to believers or is Jesus only talking to unbelievers Mr. Rapture?

    You continue:
    ****************************
    ...now show me in the NEW TESTAMENT of examples of someone becoming UN-born again.
    Or crossing from Death to Life back to Death again.
    The reason I say New Testament is becuase after Christ rose from the dead the Spirit of God was
    now INDWELLING.
    *****************************


    (Jude 1:5-6, 11-13 KJV) I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. {6} And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day…..Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. {12} These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; {13} Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

    Jude spoke of "certain men" still living, as being twice dead. There is only one way that you can be alive and be called in the Spirit of God twice dead. That is to be dead in your sins…then pass from death to life by grace through faith in Jesus Christ…and then to embrace death once again and turn away.

    (Heb 12:25 KJV) See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

    What about Demas Mr. Rapture?

    (Phile 1:23-24 KJV) There salute thee Epaphras, my fellowprisoner in Christ Jesus; {24} Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.

    Paul then goes on to say of Him:

    (2 Tim 4:10 KJV) For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

    This is in the New Testament. And we know scripture tells us that loving the world can be fatal to our salvation. (1 John 2:15 KJV) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

    How can one get to Heaven without the love of the Father in him? Isn’t the love of the father in us, His Holy Spirit?

    You continue:
    ***************************
    Col 1:26-27,
    "the mystery which has been hidden from ages an dfrom generations, bu now has been revealed to
    His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery
    among the Gentiles: WHICH IS CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory."
    In the Old Testament there was no INDWELLING of the Spirit of God...it CAME UPON
    individuals.
    (Check the original languages and you'll see the contrast between the Old Testament and New
    Testament filling of the Spirit)
    ...if you don't understand the difference your interpretation of the Bible will be GREATLY
    effected!
    *********************************


    Not to take us off track, but as for your comment on those in the New Testament only having the Indwelling, I found a couple of verses that bring this in question:

    (1 Pet 1:10-11 KJV) Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: {11} Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    (Num 27:18 KJV) And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;

    You continue:
    ************************************
    ...another thing...when you read scripture you definetly don't want to say something thats not there or not acknowledge something that is.
    ************************************


    It is unfair that you make such an accusation without giving an example. Can you show me an example where I have said something that was not in scripture? I believe I have covered myself properly with scripture in everything I have stated on this forum.


    You continue:
    ************************************
    BUT! When you read...look closely at WHO is being referred to (i.e...."the sons of disobedience")
    ...a lot of things are confused in the Bible because people can't discern between "they" and "them"
    and "we" and "you"
    Pay very close attention and see that Paul is talking to Christians about Pagans and using them as
    examples with their positions to the Lord.
    ***********************************

    Let all that have endured up until now see what verse Mr. Rapture is referring to in his example (i.e…."the sons of disobedience"):

    (Eph 5:1-6 KJV) Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; {2} And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. {3} But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; {4} Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. {5} For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. {6} Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

    This verse speaks for itself.

    You continue:
    *******************************
    and one last thing....AND THIS IS BIGGG!!!
    You said that Christ died for our past sins but not future ones.
    ***************************************************

    No...The Bible says this

    (Rom 3:25 KJV) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    (2 Pet 1:9 KJV) But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

    And I noticed you where not able to give me one verse that says that our future sins are forgiven, but you did quote a verse that says "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins". Is John talking about the ones we are going to commit or past sins? Is this verse supposed to somehow prove that our future sins are forgiven prior to us even committing and repenting for them? I am amazed.

    You continue:
    ************************************
    How long ago did Christ die for us?
    Where you born yet?
    So how can you say that Christ didn't die for future sins?
    ************************************

    I will say it the day I can find it in scripture. Go and do likewise….

    Are our sins forgiven without having to ever repent for us to be saved? What is the use in repenting if all sins, past, present, and future are forgiven anyway? Nowhere in scripture does it say that, once one becomes born again, his future sins are forgiven. This is apart from the fact that this is what is commonly taught by those teaching the unscriptural doctrine of once saved always saved. I often find that the reason those teaching once saved always saved need to invent and use unscriptural statements like these is due to the absence of supporting scripture they have to work with. I truly believe it is not deliberate deception on their part, as much as that they are 110% persuaded in the error they believe in. Because of this persuasion they desperately grasp at anything that sounds good without considering if it can be found in scripture.

    You continue:
    **********************
    1 John 1:9
    "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all
    unrighteousness"
    Question....Who is Paul talking to? Christians or Pagans? So if they are already saved and their
    past sins are forgiven...why does He tell them to confess and have the Lord forgive and purify?
    *********************

    Well Mr. Rapture Paul did include himself; yes he did, so he must be talking to Christians? His point was to expound on the fact that when we do sin…and then confess our sins (that are now past after confessing them) he is faithful and just to forgive them. The doctrine of once saved always saved has truly blinded the sheep. Is there something wrong with telling people to remain in Jesus through faith because their salvation is in Christ. There is something wrong with telling someone that they do not have to remain in Christ once they are saved, and they still go to Heaven. It is a lie. Our salvation is in Christ and if you do not remain in Him, through faith, he will not remain in you.

    (John 15:4 KJV) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

    NIV says "Remain in me, and I will remain in you."

    This is conditional Mr. Rapture.

    Pray about it...

    Mike




    Posted by Andrew Wright on December 08, 2000

    In Reply to: Re: Response to Rapture posted by Mike on December 01, 2000

    All Christians have differing views on many aspects of theology. However, once one begins to tamper with the gospel of grace, we have grounds for disaccoiating ourselves from them, especially if they have considerable public influence. Since this site is readily available to web-surfers worldwide, it is time to expose the works salvation it discretely promotes for what it really is.

    Those who believe in a conditional security are always at pains to tell us that they do not advocate or believe in a works-based salvation, since they believe that when we put our faith in the atoning work of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are saved at that same moment. However, they believe that certain sins we may commit after salvation can negate that salvation.

    Mike's favourite verses include 1 Corinthians 6:9/10, Galatians 5:19-21 and Ephesians 5:5. Let's examine the true implications of his understanding of these verses for our Christian lives. He understands them to mean that if, after salvation, we fall into any of these sins, we lose our salvation. Christian brothers and sisters, this means that if you have committed any of the following sins since you were first saved, you became unsaved at that very point:

    If you have
    - Looked at a man, woman or child lustfully
    - Been drunk
    - Hated someone
    - Envied
    - Lost your temper
    - Quarrelled
    - Been immoral
    for even a second since you were saved, you lost your salvation at that point, according to Mike's understanding of Scripture.

    There are obvious problems with this interpretation.

    1. ALL sin is immoral, and therefore, according to Mike's understanding of Ephesians 5:5, every time you sin, you lose your salvation.

    2. If Mike believes that it takes more than one lustful look, fit of rage or argument, to take but a few examples, to negate salvation, then how many does it take?

    3. Assuming, therefore, that Mike does believe that we lose our salvation every time we commit one of those sins, who can honestly say that they have been saved for any longer than a few days before becoming unsaved again? Can you, Mike? Please note that I am not attempting to downplay the seriousness of sin. I am simply stating the known fact that although we have been born again of the Holy Spirit, we still struggle with sin and we fall from time to time.

    4. If commiting any sin mentioned in the aforementioned three passages of Scripture does cause us to lose our salvation, then why is there any need for Paul to give any other incentive not to commit them? Why did he bother to write such verses as 1 Corinthians 6:13-20 and Ephesians 5:18? Why didn't he write: "Do not be drunk with wine, which leads to a loss of salvation"?

    The reality is that there is not one verse in the Holy Bible which states that one can lose their salvation. By contrast, although there are few passages which prove that once someone is TRULY saved, they will never be lost, those which do are quite clear.

    John 10:27-29 states that no one can pluck Jesus' sheep out of his hand. Conditional security adherents, such as Mike, attempt to dismiss these verses by pointing out that the promise only applies to those who continually follow him. Does this mean that any time they sin, they are no longer following him and can no longer claim this promise? It is clear from verses 24-26 that this was not Jesus' intended meaning. He was drawing a contrast between the Jews who did not believe in him and his disciples who did. If Mike's interpretation is correct, then what is the point of the promise in verse 28?

    Ephesians 5:13/14 states that, as believers, we are marked with a seal, the Holy Spirit. This seal guarantees our inheritance, presumably eternal life in heaven. What is the meaning, purpose or point of this seal if it can be broken even by momentary sin?

    Romans 8:29/30 states that God foreknew all Christians; in other words, because he is eternal and knows the future, he knew who would make the decision to believe in Jesus. According to these two verses, all those that God foreknew, he called; all those he called, he justified - in other words, he saved them; and all those who were saved, he glorified. He glorified! Where? In heaven! Isn't that what these verses mean? We certainly aren't in a state of glorification here on earth! Therefore, these two verses prove the unbreakable link between salvation and entrance to heaven.

    For Mike's information, and as most of us probably realise, teachers such as Zane Hodges denie that repentacne is necessary for salvation. As such false teachers undoubtedly existed in Paul's day (and promoted much worse heresies) verses such as 1 Cor. 6:9/10 were needed to inform those who "believed" in Jesus without repenting that they would not make it to heaven on that basis.

    Since Mike is, in essence, "working" in order to prevent himself from committing sin, encouraging others to do the same, and, therefore, trusting in his ability to do this to save himself, he is presenting a very different message of salvation from the one detailed in Scripture. Since 2 John:10/11 exhorts us not to encourage those who teach heresies, however discrete and suger-coated they may appear, I exhort all who subscribe to this site's newsletter and who regularly visit this site to discontinue doing so, at least until Mike sees the light, and finds true salvation. However, I will continue to come until I see what response this message gets.

    PS: I left a summary of my feelings about this site's heretical salvation message on the guestbook under the name "Ricky McCartney". The response of the site was to place me on their mailing list! Mike obviously assumes that all who sign the guestbook will have favourable feelings about the site. Not so.




    Posted by Mike on December 10, 2000

    In Reply to: Boycott this site! posted by Andrew Wright on December 08, 2000

    Andrew Wright,

    You stated:
    *******************************
    All Christians have differing views on many aspects of theology. However, once one begins to tamper with the gospel of grace, we have grounds for disaccoiating ourselves from them, especially if they have considerable public influence. Since this site is readily available to web-surfers worldwide, it is time to expose the works salvation it discretely promotes for what it really is.
    Those who believe in a conditional security are always at pains to tell us that they do not advocate or believe in a works-based salvation, since they believe that when we put our faith in the atoning work of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are saved at that same moment. However, they believe that certain sins we may commit after salvation can negate that salvation.
    ***********************************

    To say that when one does not believe in an unconditional based security or in other words (does not believe in once saved always saved) means they believe in a works based salvation, is to be ignorant of how one is saved and confusing the issue. Andrew, were you saved by putting your faith in the atoning work of the cross or by believing that once you were saved it was impossible to lose your salvation? Your letter reveals to me that you are one that replaces Christ, with once saved always saved, by saying if you do not believe in an unconditional eternal security, you believe in another way of salvation. Salvation was made possible in Christ alone, and whether or not one can fall from grace is a different subject all together. In your letter you have called me a heretic because I do not believe in once saved always saved. It is you who have replaced the gospel of Christ with a lie, and made salvation not in Christ alone, but whether or not one believes in unconditional eternal security.

    It is always the same distraction; this is not about HOW one gets saved, rather can one fall from grace once one is saved? In every verse I have quoted and every thing I have said my conclusions have been the same. Salvation, once accepted, is conditional upon REMAINING in Christ through FAITH. If faith is works, as you say, then you are saved by a works based salvation yourself. Were you not saved the same way I was, “by grace through faith”? The Bible goes on to teach this salvation is conditional upon you remaining in God’s grace through faith.

    (Rom 5:2 KJV) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    (Col 1:21-23 KJV) And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled {22} In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: {23} IF YE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    Even though the scriptures tell us not to do certain sins even once, committing these sins at one point in our walk is not what places us in danger of eternal damnation. Scripture tells us that it is the continual practice of these sins that prevents us from inheriting the kingdom of God.

    (Eph 5:3-5 KJV) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; {4} Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. {5} For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

    (Heb 10:26-29 KJV) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, {27} But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. {28} He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: {29} Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


    You continue:
    *************************
    Mike's favourite verses include 1 Corinthians 6:9/10, Galatians 5:19-21 and Ephesians 5:5. Let's examine the true implications of his understanding of these verses for our Christian lives. He understands them to mean that if, after salvation, we fall into any of these sins, we lose our salvation. Christian brothers and sisters, this means that if you have committed any of the following sins since you were first saved, you became unsaved at that very point:
    If you have
    - Looked at a man, woman or child lustfully
    - Been drunk
    - Hated someone
    - Envied
    - Lost your temper
    - Quarrelled
    - Been immoral
    for even a second since you were saved, you lost your salvation at that point, according to Mike's understanding of Scripture.
    **********************************

    Please show me in this forum where I ever said, “if after salvation, we fall into any of these sins, at that point we lose our salvation”. I am sorry but you have just grossly misrepresented me. Scripture makes it clear that it is the CONTINUAL practice of these sins that the bible warns, “you shall not inherit the kingdom of God”. The way you then build of this gross misrepresentation is childish. Please point out to those reading this forum where I ever stated that once you have committed certain sins you become unsaved. I am assuming that it is because of the lack of scripture concerning what you believe that you have to resort to this sort of tactic.

    Your opening remarks led me to believe I was dealing with someone challenging. After reading the rest of your letter I am convinced otherwise. If the assumptions and accusations that you made thus far were accurate I might have spent the time to defend them, but the rest of your letter is building off the misrepresentation you make at the beginning of it. I understand that those that hold to this doctrine truly believe in it. Whether you believe this or not, you are my brother. Hopefully God’s Word will teach us both what God wants us to know, to do what He has called us both to do, that He alone might get the glory He deserves.

    God Bless

    Mike

    Just thought I would leave you something to think about:

    Is it not possible to start believing a lie after you have placed your faith in the truth? In Paul’s letter to the Galatians he accuses them of turning to another gospel after they were saved with the true gospel. Paul then threatens that if they continue to trust in this false hope they would fall from grace.

    (Gal 3:1-4 5:4 KJV) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? {2} This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? {3} Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? {4} Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain..... Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    If one starts to believe that circumcision is necessary to get to Heaven is this not another gospel? Will he then still go to Heaven because at one point in his life he was saved and believed in finish work of Christ? Paul warned otherwise.

    Bear with me here, but according to what you believe, if you start to believe you can lose your salvation after being saved, you are then not saved because you do not believe in once saved always saved, but yet you yourself do not believe that this is possible. This is ridiculous.




    Posted by Andrew Wright on December 10, 2000

    In Reply to: Re: Andrew Wright posted by Mike on December 10, 2000

    Well Mike,

    Thank you for clarifying your beliefs to me. However, I am still unsure of exactly what they are. You state that it is only the "continual" practice of the sins mentioned in Gal.5:19-21 and similar passages that will keep us from heaven. But what do you mean by "continual"? Do you really know what you mean yourself? The logical conclusion is that, at some point, if we are sinning against God, he decides he has had enough and banishes us from heaven. But how long is "continual"? I believe that those who hold to a belief in conditional security don't really know how to answer this point. My conclusion that if you fall into any of these sins for even a second, you lose your salvation at that point, is actually what www.evangelicaloutreach.com teaches. This site is arguably the most exhaustive and complete record of the meaning of conditional security. Pastor Joe Schimmel is affiliated to that site, and he includes a link to your site on his site, so I thought that this was probably what you believed too. I apologise for misrepresenting you.

    There are Christians who believe that one can lose their salvation, but only by "not believing anymore". Although I believe that this will not happen to true believers, I am willing to accept this alternative belief and I respect those that hold to it. When you say that we must "continue in Christ through faith", you sound more like those who hold to that same kind of belief. This is what Wesley himself believed and taught. These same Christians don't believe that sin, in itself, can cause a loss of salvation, whereas it appears that you do. I am not equating eternal security to the Bible. What I am saying is that if we believe sin can cause us to lose our salvation, surely we must be trusting partly in our own ability to keep ourselves from sinning and, therefore, taking away from the finished work of Jesus Christ. Even if you do believe this, it is possible that you may still be Biblically saved, but the conditional security road is a very dangerous one. I was almost swayed into accepting what I read at the aforementioned Evangelical Outreach, but once I had begun to adapt my beliefs, it became glaringly obvious that the sort of conditional security they advocated was a works-based salvation in disguise. Please visit their site, if you have not already done so, and tell me what you think of what they teach.

    My beliefs are enshrined in such passages as Romans 8:29-30, John 10:27-29 and Ephesians 1:13-14 (Sorry about the incorrect reference yesterday). I was disappointed that you didn't answer my comments on these verses, and I would like to know how you understand them; particularly Romans 8:29-30. If you do, I will then answer what you asked me at the end of your letter.

    It appears that your beliefs may not be quite as radical as I thought they were. I apologise for the comment about the guestbook, but because I was so nearly deceived about a year ago, I want to campaign passionately against it.

    Thanks and God bless you
    Andrew



    Posted by Mike on December 14, 2000

    Andrew,

    I must say I didn’t expect your response. My wife and I are both humbled and blessed. I am sorry myself if I seemed to be hard on you. Despite my flesh, God worked it out for the good. I am convinced that apart from our doctrinal differences we will both spend eternity together with Jesus, by the grace of God.

    I have never heard of, or been to the Evangelical Outreach site, but I will check out what they have to say and let you know what I think.

    As a suggestion, it is probably not a good idea to have your beliefs enshrined in one or two verses of scripture. Our beliefs should encompass the Word of God as a whole, nothing added and nothing taken away. It is detrimental to our growth when we derive our doctrine from isolated scripture without considering the rest of Bible.

    In answer to your questions, you stated in your second response:

    *******************************************
    But what do you mean by "continual"? Do you really know what you mean yourself? The logical conclusion is that, at some point, if we are sinning against God, he decides he has had enough and banishes us from heaven. But how long is "continual"? I believe that those who hold to a belief in conditional security don't really know how to answer this point.
    *******************************************

    I don’t think that your logical conclusion is too far fetched from what God’s Word demonstrates. He is the same today, yesterday and forever and this is how he has dealt with those he has called His own (Israel). God said, not long after creating man “My spirit shall not always strive with man?” He said to the Laodicean Church:

    (Rev 3:15-17 KJV) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. {17} Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

    If the only way to God is in Christ, how is this church going to get to God if Christ spits them out? To me this church has a serious choice to make and it could be detrimental to their souls.

    I believe the bible teaches a conditional eternal security and that scripture provides more than enough support to be able to answer your questions. If what you want is a simple phrase concerning what the bible teaches, it is “salvation is conditional upon remaining in Christ, through faith.”

    When it comes to how the Bible deals with sin and its role in robbing us, for the lack of better words, I will have to explain it this way. For the sake of making this simple I will use the sin of adultery in my example, but this could apply to any of the sinful practices that Paul continually mentioned in scripture, those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    One who continually practices adultery is called an adulterer. This label is not contingent upon any commitment one has made in his past. If one is living this way that is what one is. Prior to our conversion this is how we lived. Now we are continuing to follow Christ, by the grace of God. We believe in Him. The moment we started believing in Him we were filled with the Holy Spirit. We are called Christians because of this faith in Christ. If we abandoned Him and turn back to living in adultery we are adulterers. Are we continuing to believe in Christ by living as adulterers? No! Don’t misunderstand what I am saying, the bible does not teach that we become saved and unsaved and saved again. Rather it clearly states that no adulterer will enter the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9, Eph 5:5, Gal 5:21) If one backslides and at some point in his life turns back to God, by grace through faith, he is forgiven. This is what scripture teaches. It is God that has made these rules and His Word is the source I am deriving my doctrine from.

    You had said in you first reply:

    ******************************************
    Romans 8:29/30 states that God foreknew all Christians; in other words, because he is eternal and knows the future, he knew who would make the decision to believe in Jesus. According to these two verses, all those that God foreknew, he called; all those he called, he justified - in other words, he saved them; and all those who were saved, he glorified. He glorified! Where? In heaven! Isn't that what these verses mean? We certainly aren't in a state of glorification here on earth! Therefore, these two verses prove the unbreakable link between salvation and entrance to heaven.
    *****************************************

    This is not about anyone being in a state of glorification. We are not in a state of anything apart from remaining in Jesus. Though He is, and any benefit we have received is ours as we remain in Him.

    I wish you were able to see how much reading into this passage needs to be done, to come to the conclusion you just arrived at. You are correct about God knowing everything. God knows everything. He knows who will and who won’t give their lives over to Him. He also knows who will give their lives over to Him, and then take back the life they once committed. Jesus knew Judas was going to abandon Him, but yet he still chose him as one of the twelve. God is able to keep what we commit to Him, through faith. When we decided to place our faith in Him it was like putting our lives in a safe deposit box. Christ is the safe deposit box, and it was through faith that we were able to place the commitment of our lives in Him. Scripture tells us:

    (2 Tim 1:12 KJV) For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

    If we take back, that which we have committed to him, what is there for Him to keep until that day? We are warned to remain in Him through faith. Scripture tells us he will remain in us if we remain in Him (John 15:4). We do this through faith.

    I agree that He knows all things and knows who will accept Him but I have to disagree with you on your conclusion.

    The verse you are talking about is this one:

    (Rom 8:30 KJV) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    The glory that you are referring to has been accomplished in Christ. We are not glorified yet. He is and we will be, if we remain in Him through faith. One day soon He will be glorified in us but this does not mean that once you get saved it is impossible for you to fall away. Can you not see how one has to dig into these verses that have nothing to do with the subject to make them say, “once saved, you can not depart from the faith”? Our predestination, justification and glorification are in Christ not Heaven. What has been done in Christ was done in Christ before the world began. The Way has been prepared and now it is up to those who would hear the call and believe, to place themselves in this Way through faith.

    (2 Tim 1:9 KJV) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

    God has made available to us a vehicle of justification, predestination, and glorification and Christ is this vehicle. It is only IN Christ that we are accepted.

    (Eph 1:6 KJV) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    When He comes for us it is in Himself that he will gather us and all things.

    (Eph 1:10 KJV) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    Our eternal purpose was not to be glorified in Heaven but in Christ

    (Eph 3:11 KJV) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    It is only IN Him that we live, move and have our being

    (Acts 17:28 KJV) For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

    The good works that we do were made possible for us IN Christ

    (Eph 2:10 KJV) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    The gift of salvation is IN Christ and is not a residential gift that can be obtained outside of Him. One needs to be in Christ, (and this is done by grace, through faith) to accept and keep this gift. Bear with me on this comparison, but it is almost like having McDonald’s gift certificates. They are only good at McDonalds. This gift is only ours in Christ. The biggest mistake with the doctrine of once saved always saved is the self-sufficiency it brings about in a believer’s life. Our reliance and dependency upon Jesus should be all the more increasing as we grow. Instead this doctrine creates a mirage of unremovable self-sufficient salvation with a basis that has nothing to do with remaining in Christ. Instead of growing more dependent upon Christ, this doctrine brings about the exact opposite effect to one who is supposed to be growing in Christ as revealed in scripture. There is a sense that salvation is not in Christ, but forever embedded into the Christian that made a commitment once in his life to believe. I see the scriptures placing every promise in the Bible in Jesus and these promises are only ours as we remain in Him through faith.

    (2 Cor 1:20 KJV) For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

    (Eph 3:6 KJV) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    (2 Tim 1:1 KJV) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

    We are saved by grace through faith but it is IN Christ that this grace resides.

    (2 Tim 2:1 KJV) Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

    Our prize is in Christ.

    (Phil 3:14 KJV) I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

    We are made perfect IN Christ.

    (Col 1:28 KJV) Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

    Our salvation is IN Christ

    (2 Tim 2:10 KJV) Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

    Our sanctification is IN Christ

    (1 Cor 1:2 KJV) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

    Our death takes place IN Christ:

    (1 Cor 15:18 KJV) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

    We are made alive in Christ

    (1 Cor 15:22 KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    It is only IN Christ that we triumph

    (2 Cor 2:14 KJV) Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

    Our redemption is IN Christ

    (Rom 3:24 KJV) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    Our reconciliation takes place IN Christ

    (2 Cor 5:19 KJV) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Freedom and liberty is only IN Christ

    (Gal 2:4 KJV) And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

    Our life is in Christ

    (John 1:4 KJV) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    We are even seated in Heavenly places, but this is only IN Christ

    (Eph 2:6 KJV) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    Every spiritual blessing can only be found (you guessed it) IN Christ.

    (Eph 1:3 KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    We are not even new creatures on our own it is only IN Christ that we are new creatures.

    (2 Cor 5:17 KJV) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    The love of God is IN Christ

    (1 Tim 1:14 KJV) And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

    The Church is IN Christ

    (Rom 12:5 KJV) So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

    There is therefore no condemnation that is if you are remaining IN Christ

    (Rom 8:1 KJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    We place ourselves in Christ through faith, we remain in Christ through faith, and without faith it is impossible to please God. We are warned to continue in Christ, we are warned we can be spit out of Christ. I guess what I am trying to say is this:

    (2 Cor 11:3 KJV) But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is IN CHRIST.

    It is all in Christ Andrew. Every promise ever made in scripture is in Him. And we place ourselves in Him through faith. He warns us throughout scripture that we can remove, sever, and depart ourselves from Him.

    (Heb 3:6 KJV) But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if (conditional) we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

    (Heb 3:12-14 KJV) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. {13} But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. {14} For we are made partakers of Christ, if (conditional) we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    (1 Tim 4:1-2 KJV) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; {2} Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    If we do not continue in faith we are warned that we can be cut off just like the Israelites were.

    (Rom 11:17-23 KJV) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; {18} Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. {19} Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. {20} Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: {21} For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. {22} Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. {23} And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

    Can you not see the pattern of conditional promises here? They all have one thing in common and it all boils down to remaining in Christ through faith. We are continually dependent upon Him and without Him we can do nothing. We have not become saved apart from Him, but in Him. We must remain in Him through faith.

    (John 15:1-6 KJV) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. {2} Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. {3} Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. {4} Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. {5} I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. {6} If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

    If one does not remain in Him “he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned”.

    Why would Paul encourage the Jews to continue in the GRACE of God if it were impossible not to?

    (Acts 13:43 KJV) Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

    Why would Paul encourage the Jews to continue in the FAITH of God if it were impossible not to?

    (Acts 14:22 KJV) Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

    This verse should end it all. We are only reconciled, made holy, unblameable and unreproveable in his sight if we continue in the faith.

    (Col 1:21-23 KJV) And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled {22} In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: {23} If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    You had asked me to explain John 10:27-29. The verse is as follows:

    (John 10:26-29 KJV) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. {27} My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: {28} And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. {29} My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    This promise is made to those who believe, those who are (My sheep that hear my voice, and follow me). To these Christ is saying “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand”. This in no way says you can not fall from grace once you are saved. It says that no one can take the salvation of those who through faith hear His voice and follow him. And how does one follow Him? Not the actual literal work that it takes to walk and follow him but scripture says:

    (2 Cor 5:7 KJV) (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

    This is how we follow Jesus (by faith). Actually this is how we stand in Christ:

    (Rom 5:2 KJV) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    (2 Cor 1:24 KJV) Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

    Our life itself is contingent upon this faith:

    (Hab 2:4 KJV) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

    (Rom 1:17 KJV) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    (Gal 2:20 KJV) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    (Gal 3:11 KJV) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

    (Heb 10:38 KJV) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

    (Heb 11:6 KJV) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    Scripture makes it very clear that our salvation is conditional upon remaining in faith
    The Bible says our walk started out this way and that we are to finish it this way:

    (Col 2:6 KJV) As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

    (1 John 2:24 KJV) Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

    (Heb 3:14 KJV) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    (John 8:31 KJV) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

    Search the Scriptures might not be the most exhaustive and complete record of the meaning of conditional security but hopefully it properly represents scriptures.

    You said:
    ******************************
    There are Christians who believe that one can lose their salvation, but only by "not believing anymore". Although I believe that this will not happen to true believers, I am willing to accept this alternative belief and I respect those that hold to it.
    *******************************
    Where does it say in scripture that it is impossible for someone that has truly believed and received the Holy Spirit to not believe any more?

    How do you interpret this verse if that is what you believe?

    (Heb 3:12-14 KJV) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. {13} But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. {14} For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    You said:
    ******************************
    These same Christians don't believe that sin, in itself, can cause a loss of salvation, whereas it appears that you do. I am not equating eternal security to the Bible. What I am saying is that if we believe sin can cause us to lose our salvation, surely we must be trusting partly in our own ability to keep ourselves from sinning and, therefore, taking away from the finished work of Jesus Christ. Even if you do believe this, it is possible that you may still be Biblically saved, but the conditional security road is a very dangerous one.
    ********************************

    What is more dangerous, believing that you don’t have to continue in Christ through faith to remain saved, or believing that your salvation is in Christ as you remain in Him through faith? I would think it would be obvious. Would you have me warn that if you eat of this fruit, do not be deceived, you shall surly die? Or say as the serpent, you shall not surely die, because it is impossible for you to be deceived and start believing in damnable heresies and doctrines of demons? It is the same lie that was told in the garden except now we are dealing with the second death. You and I both know there are literally thousands of Christians out there that have had a legitimate conversion that have fallen back into the sin that once had them in chains. It is my desire to see them freed once again. This doctrine does nothing but precipitate and often seal their demise. Christ warned us that it was impossible to serve two masters, because we will love the one and hate the other, but yet this doctrine has many believing that you can.

    (Rom 6:15-16 KJV) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. {16} Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    It is possible (as a brother) to come to a place where sin has hardened your heart to where you want nothing to do with what God has done for you.

    (Heb 3:12-14 KJV) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. {13} But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. {14} For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    Just because we can not imagine this being possible does not mean that it can not. This is a terrible way to derive our doctrine. We need to be able to biblically support what we believe in. Feelings and what sounds good just does not cut it, and this is what is very dangerous. It is clear throughout scripture, Christians fall away.

    (2 Pet 2:20-21 KJV) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. {21} For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    (Heb 6:4-6 KJV) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, {5} And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, {6} If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    What do we do with warnings in scripture like this?

    (Phil 2:12 KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

    (Rom 11:20-21 KJV) Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: {21} For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

    (Luke 13:24-28 KJV) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. {25} When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: {26} Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. {27} But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. {28} There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

    Do we just ignore them? Apart from the way you believe about those who are convinced salvation is conditional upon remaining, in Christ through faith, I myself am not living in a state of constant fear. Through God’s grace I am looking to Jesus, the author and the finisher of my faith.

    Years ago as a Christian, I slipped into a state of utter hopelessness during my walk. I was backsliden and doing things that I was not doing while unsaved. Terrible things that I will not even get into. This time in my life is a constant reminder to me whenever compromise tries to weasel its way into my walk and I start to take Christ’s salvation for granted. It’s not as though I believe that I was unsaved even when I was living like the devil. I truly felt as though God had not left me. The only problem was I knew that God is not a liar and that He could not let me into His Heaven the way I was continually living. I was in a state of rebellion at the time, and the Bible says that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. Should I have trusted the way I felt or God’s Word? There is a way that seems right to a man but the ways thereof leads to death.

    Because of the depth God allowed me to fall, and those that have never come back from backsliding, I do not take my walk lightly. I know how easy it is to get in that state and I will never forget the miracle it took to get me out. At the same time I live in a state of excitement in the things that God is doing in my life. Don’t get me wrong, at times the Lord keeps me in check by showing me how vulnerable I am, and where my strength is, (in Him), but I am continually committed to the freedom God has made available to me in Christ through faith. If I start to do the wrong thing I have no right experiencing this freedom.

    (Rom 8:1 KJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Being free of condemnation only applies to those who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, and “we walk by faith not by sight”.

    (1 John 3:20-21 KJV) For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. {21} Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

    We should only have confidence if our heart does not condemn us. If we are living in adultery, we should not be confident that we are still OK.

    I know there is much said here and I hope that I covered everything you asked about. If not let me know and I will do my best to answer whatever questions you might have of me. This is not bad news I am telling you it is good news. If you are remaining in Christ through faith, a doctrine making your salvation unconditionally yours, becomes unnecessary. But if you are not living right, this doctrine will allow you to remain in this state without any fear of losing everything.

    Mike





    copyright (c) 2000 SEARCHTHESCRIPTURES.COM, all rights reserved
    designed & hosted by searchthescriptures.com
    The Integrity of Sound Doctrine
    Based on the Word of God

  • Click HERE to go back